Mark, I'm unclear what the "leg in a circle" looks like; ditto the "star over the k". production. This printed and hardbound book, written in English and French by Alain Daubresse, provide an extensive insight about the gunmaking activity in Belgium from its very beginning to the middle of the 20th century. Original British Martini-Henry Rifle Extractor Mk IV From $34.95 Free Domestic Shipping on orders $300+ Hassle Free 30 Day Return Period 100% Safe Secure Checkout Guaranteed Authentic to the Historical Period Gun Indentification - German Hunting Guns Second Variation serial numbers 707517-851751 (7,000 produced) - 708921. Burlet My best guess is that it's a maker's mark, but of course I could be wrong. Are you sure they are Damascus and not perhaps fake Damascus made by etching a spiral pattern on solid steel barrels for those who liked the look of Damascus? they were made + or - 1900 to 1930's. Comblain - Dorther Hubert Gun Barrel Proof Marks - Dave Cushman cases. Nowadays these firearms are mostly used for hunting or kept at home for self-defence. Bouquin Ad The "D.D. old belgian gun makers - Telecore Digital Markings on gun barrels and other gun components that indicate the level of pressure, calibre and standards that a weapon is fit for in service.. Comblain H. J. All 31 Belgian gun makers, Belgium dealers and sellers and suppliers Post request for quotation and get multiple offers from manufacturers, 155MM HE 107 Full Zone 8 Charge with Electronic Fuze, Large quantity of surplus guns and exotic guns, BA 312 Semi-Auto Magazine Tube Tactical Shotgun, BA 912 Bullpup Mag-Fed Semi-Auto (2 Different Mold), BA 912 Special Cerakote Bullpup Mag-Fed Semi-Auto Shotgun. Its weight Gun Barrel Proof Marks. into which each separate book is dealing with a small portion of the whole, and that is As the old saying has it, "The buyer needs a thousand eyes; the seller, only one." The slot for the pin had to be welded up and a firing pin installed.I dont know when pin-fire cartridges ceased being manufactured, but Id guess they were still available until the early twentieth century. Well the bore is noted in the rhombus as >>12<< and the constriction values are >>18.2/18.2<< & >>17.3/18.2<< so with those it has to be a 12 bore. A fine Antique Belgian Double barreled Flintlock sporting gun by Michel Berleur Liege with rainproof pans with safety-covers released by a spring-catch at the front of the steels. Measuring the bore diameter and chamber Navigation (GPS, altimetres, compasses, maps), Immediate shipping on a all products listed. See Kennett's # 2 and # 9 above. Bernard Henri Eugne And I have a photo taken at Winchester, TX with Maj. Thomas Doan during the Dusty March, July 1863, Dechard, TN. significance or purpose. The Ask the Pros & What's It Worth? 254.541.2985 John Hille, john@jhille.com. Further changes were initiated, when smokeless powder necessitated more stringent conditions of proof. The rifle requirements were developed through a process of lengthy trials and included, most notably, the box magazine that could be loaded by stripper clip or by. I'm a ypunger collector/gun activist. Belgium Leige - The DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com These firearms thank you. If not, consider it loaded and potentially dangerous. Good examples of the information that can be derived from adequate images. Quite old. The Model 1889 Mauser: A Rifle That Saved Paris Antique Shotguns - Percussion for sale - Guns International Project Upland. Information, NRA Thanks. Long Beach, CA: Safari Press, 2000. outlawman7 - The reason for a lack of response here may be found in the post immediately above yours. Each new gun is presented in a best oak and leather case complete with canvas outer and a full complement of accessories. will normally provide the information needed to make a caliber European&other - Long Guns - Bolk Antiques One issue of this collection for the year 1910, which I found in the US Library of Congress, contains a curious case which throws some light on how some Belgian gun manufacturers actually operated. Collard Henri - Roux Jacques JavaScript is disabled. These marks are the Belgian Lion rampant over the letters S.C.H. These include the Bazin F.J. Thanks for any help you can offer.Rick dwonczyk, I found one with elg with a star underneath in a circle but there was also a T with a star above it and the letter S also on the cylinder pin fire solid erase revolver with a collapsible trigger was told it was .31, Hi, Rick. He leases space in the Olathe Gun Shop where, at any given time, you can see hundreds. Judging by the comments that appeared when I Googled "spesco corporation," your guess is on target. Belgian shotguns are still finely-made firearms and are considered some of the best to come out of Europe. I'm very excited about this gun because I think the serial number is 106. Forum, http://www.littlegun.be/arme belge/artisans identifies d/a delcour dupont gb.htm, http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_All_Proofmarks.html, http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_Trade_Marks.html. Using a shotgun shell (a self-contained cartridge with multiple small, sphere-shaped projectiles) instead of a usual bullet is what makes a shotgun a separate kind of a gun. He designed iconic guns like the M1911 handgun, the Browning Hi-Power pistol, and the Browning Auto-5 shotgun. Hunting, fishing, cooking, and other critical aspects of life. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Hand Guns 3 Rifles-Shotguns 0 . Midway USA sells a CO2 kit to unload both flint and percussion guns.Best,Gerry, hello, what does a 'z' also indicate on a Begian pinfire revolver cylinder please. Do check with a gunsmith before you shoot it! Belgian Arms cie It is a 12 gauge with 70mm = 2 3/4" chambers. 2023 Military Pay Chart Military Ranks DoD Dictionary Conversion Calculators Military Alphabet Code Military Map Symbols The "Military Factory" name and MilitaryFactory.com logo are registered U.S. trademarks protected by all applicable domestic and international intellectual property laws. Bte" tells us the maker: it stands for "Dieudonn Debouxthay Brevete", or "Patent Dieudonn Debouxthay" in English. Bauduin Charles Hand Guns 5 Rifles-Shotguns 1 . "Proofs" as they are sometimes referred to have changed over LLH (and other Belgian makers) made the tubes used by most of the U.S. double gun makers 1920s-1940s, with Siemens-Martin or Krupp (by license) steel supplied by Cockerill. 14 Designates guns with rifled chokes. . Other than the diameter stamp, I don't see a 70mm stamp. The God who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time. carefully bound by threads. Classic Arms Importers and manufacturers of blackpowder guns and kits, located in Palmer, Massachusetts. When Was My Gun Made? Firearm Dates by Serial Number - SkyAboveUs In contrast to Walther, Mauser did not start over with serial numbers at the . Now represents definitive black powder proof except for muzzle loaders, This mark is found on barrels and locks after voluntary semi-smokeless proof, Standard smokeless powder proof on military rifles below 8mm caliber.1898-present, Standard smokeless proof for all arms.1903-present, Mark applied to barrels which failed proof and have returned to makers for reworking. 1890, double bbl shotgun, 12 ga, 30" bbls. IMPORTANT NOTE! Their cipher or mark was the letters G.P. Makers - Darne, Merkel, Arrieta, Beretta, Browning, Holland, Purdey, Richards, Bernardelli, Parker, Fox, LC Smith, and most other double barreled shotgun, gun and double rifle makers. Double Take: Gorgeous Vintage Side-by-Side Shotguns - Field & Stream This listing allows you to trace back a particular nation's aviation history in reverse-chronological order. arsenal marks, you will find other marks or stampings. In its small version its a acceptance mark on barrels that was exported in a unfinished state 1846-1893, In its small version its a black powder mark on small pistols and revolvers barrels 1866-1893, In its small version its a black powder mark on small revolvers cylinders 1866-1893. The drawings vary in style due to differences in the original information.Most are black silhouettes, but some of those that have been produced from photographs have a quasi 3 dimensional appearance that requires the onlooker . Unmarked barrel with Belgian proof mark, action currently . The "1136" might be the serial number for that pair of pistols. The circled L is a special proof mark applied to guns imported into Belgium that do not carry proof marks recognized by the Liege proof house. The other side of the coin is that quality can indeed be there in Belgian guns: The Belgian Browning Superposed were all fine guns, whilefirms like Francotte, Dumoulin, or Lebeau-Courallycould make guns of very high quality indeed. Belgium vs. Japan: Who Made the Better Browning Auto-5? The numbers 138 G(looks like a 1) are under the proof mark. Bronne Gustave Due to the vast quantity of data to treat, the global work was parted . Do check with a gunsmith before you shoot it! Classic Guns: Great American Double-Barrel Shotguns - Gun - Gun Digest Dear Shamsher, I can't help much without sharp photos, but it appears your gun is Belgian, made in Liege, no earlier than 1893. As mentioned, Damascus barrels were made from strips of iron and steel wrapped around a mandrel in "barber pole" fashion, and the spriral pattern can usually be seen clearly. All 31 Belgian gun makers, Belgium dealers and sellers and suppliers Home > Companies Gun & arms makers from Belgium country Czech Republic South Africa Israel Malaysia Netherlands Belgium Norway United Arab Emirates Finland Nigeria Ukraine Hungary Indonesia Lithuania Serbia Slovak Republic Croatia New Zealand Sweden Greece Japan Slovenia I will try to upload a pic if it'll let me. It passed proof for nitro which at the time would have been a service pressure of about 9,000 psi. interlaced, and surmounted by a crown. Again, thank you #1 A buddy at work inherited a very nice customized Mauser from his dad. Marks, Arsenal & Inspector Marks, Manufacturers Drue, yes, the absence of rifling means that this pin-fire was used for shot.Pin-fires represent an important stage in the development of firearms. Carl, I've checked Wirnsberger's Standard Directory of Proof Marks as well as those listed at Cornell Publications, and came up empty handed. British gunmakers of the 21st century - The Field The major countries which either did not have proof or whose marks were not recognized were the U.S. and Spain. Today, Belgian firearms designer Francotte builds famed double barreled shotguns and fine rifles. Sounds like a 19th C. Belgian pinfire shotgun (grin). Hey I have a F. Dumoulin & Co. 12 gauge side by side with double hammers. The mark is applied after the gun has passed the Belgian proof. Introduced for handguns in 1894, rifles over 8mm in 1897. After 1924 fractions of grams were no longer used 1892 - present 1K355.5 17 1860-1870. Smaller gauges progressively cost more, with 20-gauge guns generally bringing at least twice the price of a 12 gauge. for your continued support, encouragement and admonishment. Boden ~JP2lLn)wMO(;%vvRnS>2sw~zG!D""L0MW#+J%d)g"#Q4H&D4&KdU_};g|CN>Is>X&'vqFc&Pkr3EjZ1M&|dv55*6GI?/cOra#2K;cW>rLFtgtycw^4RiK-myVS[${XZw ho"=^f%DeiG wPnD6#diqSg].GI24?>.0 ?~wXy$6Sd3Ln2IdLL_#6)G7OE)7igF. We provide antique gun prices and pictures of each antique firearm we sell. Antique Shotguns & Belgian Shotguns Side by Side - Collectors Firearms Any maker's name on the rib between the barrels?Best,Gerry, 1902 a greener twobarrel it has hh on botten of barrel what do i have. Sorry! Mechanicsburg, PA: Stackpole Books, 2008. B. Tradename on guns made in Belgium, c.1900. I also looked at other European proof marks but didn't find the one you mention: compare http://www.cornellpubs.com/Catalog/proof-marks-intl.pdf. Mauser was a late entry in 1888. Belgian proofs are among the oldest and have a very long history. The Modern Shotgun. "Arsenal" or "Inspector Marks". Is there a stamp of LLH on the tubes forward of the flats? . Lee Kennett did afine survey, "A History of Proof Marks: Gun Proof in Belgium," that waspublished in. Wish I could be more helpful! Bonzon & Arents & Cie Their proof marks are two feathers, or curved branches, crossed with letters in the angles of the cross so formed. Warnant Top Break Double Action Revolver - Revivaler Example of inspectors mark, any letter can be used with a crown. Inspector's marks can not be used to establish date of manufacture; they were re-used over time and the significance of some has been lost. It is located just above the circle with ELG. Once tested and successful the weapon was stamped with a seal to We have just started to assemble this on going source of Proof Oftentimes it makes no sense to let go of the past, particularly since shotguns from higher-quality Damascus steel are as shootable today as they were 150-plus years ago. Ad Categories: Pre-1840. Breechloaders had existed previously, but Casimir Lefaucheux's 1835 invention of the pin-fire cartridgea cylinder with a pin extending at right angles to the base which detonated a fulminate charge in the cartridgequickly led to better breechloading systems and to the development first of rimfire and then of centerfire cartridges. Original Antique Gun Parts for Sale - International Military Antiques Delcour-Dupont was a barrel maker in Nessonvaux, Belgium. Variant of the one above, used for some month in 1894 and sometimes later on Not for ball, indicates that the barrel has choke. How Foreign Guns Invaded the U.S. - Bloomberg.com Beckers G. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Proof and Armorers' Marks - The Book of the Pistol Birmingham did not establish its proof houses until 1813, and though another Act was passed in 1815 to strengthen the former, the laws were not stringent enough, and the Birmingham proof was not recognized as sound until much later, when the Act of 1855, still unsatisfactory, and the eventually satisfactory one of 1868, was passed. Mark for optional superior provisional proof. What about a lightning bolt with a star above? ELG Belgian markings | The Firearms Forum Worldwide Logistics for all your products. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. Still, this company firmly has its roots in the good old U.S.A. John Moses Browning is a legend of firearms history. of data available and a wealth of color pictures about the most typical pieces of his Consignment Sale Information. If you could find the time to give me a clue what exactly this gun is I would greatly appreciate it.Thanks,John. stream It is unfortunate from the point of view of history that weapons were not marked with a date letter as is customary with silver hall-marks, but the proof-marks stamped upon arms give no indication of the period of proof. I have a Belgium 38-40 with a 7 in barrel all matching. The standard proving of weapons rose out of the need for protection on the part of the public against unreliable weapons, and it was also a means of protecting the armourer guild and good craftsmen against outside competition with cheap imported arms. Tel: 01707 709372; For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. firearms books bibliary. You can tell an unaltered pin-fire by the vertical slot in the breech extending to the top of the barrel (and, of course, the absence of a firing pin). Based only on the pictures, those barrels do not appear to be Damascus. On barrels and actions of smoothbore guns with the gauge size (or nominal bore) plus the shell or cartridge case length. Can you send me some, Ed? is 1.220 kg (43.00 oz). I live in Tennessee and would love help on identifying this gun down to the year and place made. Comblain Withdraw it and lay it along the barrel, lining up the pencil mark with the muzzle. Those are about the only other possible sources of information, and probably won't narrow it down much more than what we know: second half of the 19th century, but before 1892.Best,GerryBest. Purchased by Val Forgett of Navy Arms in 1978. Double proof as prescribed by the French law of 1810. A Beginner's Guide to Collecting Vintage Side-by-Side Shotguns It means it's a 12 gauge that has been proofed with black powder. BELGIAN FLOBERT SINGLE SHOT RIFLE: Circa. to identify antique arms from different parts of the world, we decided Comblain Hubert Joseph Some older foreign The family was in the barrel making business from the 1880's until mid the 1960's. http://www.littlegun.be/arme belge/artisans identifies d/a delcour dupont gb.htm This is Jean-Baptiste Delcour-Dupont and his son Oscar, 1924. Outdoor Hub, LLC (d/b/a Carbon Media Group), 30800 Telegraph Rd, Suite 1921, Bingham Farms, MI 48025 USA. No small part of the Belgians' remarkableability to meet the demands of a wide variety of firms trading all over the world was their willingness to go on producing type of guns that were obsolete. Besides these national collections, there are many municipal and private galleries whose curators have formed most excellent catalogues, but in the main this knowledge is uncoordinated. The idea behind such a test is to verify the strength of the barrel, breech and firing system of a firearm by deliberately firing an over-pressured cartridge. Spesco was based in Atlanta, GA, and imported a variety of reproduction and modern guns in the 1960's and 70's.It would be a good idea to check that the rifle is unloaded. 1840-1860. examiner must rely on proof marks when trying to identify these Any help would be appreciated. We now have 1689 serial numbers!. The 1136 is engraved on the bottom of the barrel. Each gun maker is presented with the maximum of data available and a wealth of color pictures about the most . We provide antique gun prices and pictures of each antique firearm we sell. typically do not have a caliber designation; symbols and codes are used Rifles & Musket Information. Prices: side-by-side, from 53,000 + VAT; over-and-under, from 65,000 + VAT. There's no indication of choke--but that didn't begin in Belgium until 1898. barrel began as a means to insure its safety and integrity. Charlier Ch. ArmsCollectors.com Collectable Firearms Forums Modern, antique and collectable firearms, questions answered, gun & militaria related items. insight about the gunmaking activity in Belgium from its very beginning to the middle of wolf and human romance manga J.C. Higgins Model 31 Parts, Schematic | Numrich Gun Parts Manufacturers J.C. Higgins Rifles 31 J.C. Higgins Rifles 31 Parts List Sort by: Show Available 0 Schematic w/ Parts List 2 Driving Spring 3 Driving Spring Guide 4 Barrel 5 / 6 Bolt 8 Buttplate Screw 9 Buttplate Trim 10 Cartridge Lifter 11 Cartridge Lifter . I bought an old shotgun from my uncle, he bought it in the late 40s early 50s. Cowboy & Old Western History Items 2/3/2023 Bargain Basement 2/3/2023 Check our Services. Muzzleloading, breech loading, accessories, Airborne weapon pod systems, ammunition, vehicle mounted weapon systems, Gas-piston-operated weapon systems, firearm accessories, drop-in triggers, patriotic artwork, bolt carriers, bolts, upper receivers, barrel nut heatsinks, E^2 (E-Squared) barrels, Handguns, shotguns, machine guns, battle rifles, Suppressors, optics, ammunition, clothing, Springfield, Massachusetts armory location, (Special Warfare Operations Research and Development), This page was last edited on 20 February 2023, at 21:10. In addition to Belgian Best Shotguns - CHUCKHAWKS.COM Provisional black powder proof for breech loading guns, since 1924 reserved for smooth bore barrels. proof marks. Help to identify old belgium shotgun please | Shotgun Forum They are often found in combination with proof-marks, and still more frequently on unproved arms made in countries where no official proof was existent. Applied to all guns made but not proofed in Belgium - sent to an other country proof facilities. One of the lesser known of the Belgian handgun makers was Jean Warnant but he was a creative designer and the British Thornton's Patent for a double action revolver lock work was actually originally his idea for which he applied for a patent in Belgium in 1874 and that patent was granted in 1875. Until 1894, stamped in .02mm graduations, then in 0.1mm steps, Degree of choke, in this case 0.7mm constriction. the 20th century. Are also discussed the many markings found applied on the guns and their Side by side shotguns of this era are highly collectable and our inventory changes frequently. Collette Lopold The same stamp but smaller is found on Flobert guns, selfloading pistols with a excess proof pressure of 50%, on barrels of top break guns for Flobert or revolvers cartridges an excess pressure of 30% and or revolvers which are proofed with 30-50% excess loads. The IZh motorcycles and automobiles are manufactured by. Subcategories This category has only the following subcategory. A forum community dedicated to Shotgun owners and enthusiasts including the Remington, Beretta, and Mossberg shotguns brands. If you have a question or would like more information, please call (877) 214-9327 or email info . Quick Facts On barrel action of breech loading shotgun after the gun has passed proof with semi-smokeless powder . Arnold Mathias Belgian Liege gunmakers (A to C) - Volume 1 By Alain Daubresse This printed and hardbound book, written in English and French by Alain Daubresse, provide an extensive insight about the gunmaking activity in Belgium from its very beginning to the middle of the 20th century. I know the bottom image. Colette Victor Christophe Henri Are Damascus-Barreled Shotguns Safe to Shoot? Come join the discussion about optics, hunting, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! The gun belonged to HH Nawab Ahsanullah. Armourers marks are quite distinct from proof-marks, and comprise the private marks, ciphers, stamps, or signatures of the individual armourers or gunsmiths. the examiner in determining the caliber designation of a military Bettonville - Fontaine But despite the history the belgian proof stamps are rather straight forward, normally one can't get more information from the proof more than it has been done if one can't find the inspectors mark. )t/!Z $e9]DG=Ljr%@6) 8F&Kx[2l~WY7#|9&~L~G3jjV?~2SN?2&=qb'3d0W>l#G2;/|D)c~liS>2lVbD""L0M7;Q"gd)g"G{\3efBd. I can't ID the 'RM', who was likely the barrel maker. What does 12 over C mean in a triangle? There's no indication of gauge. The inspectors mark is still an secret so the list here should be regarded as uncertain, but it can in some cases give a more accurate dating that the stamps. Bernard Alphonse Bury Jules. Broqua & Scholberg Knowledge of commonly used military ammunition assists Bernimolin Old Belgian musket help | The Muzzleloading Forum On this page, once you scroll past the patent stuff, you'll find a gun very much like yours. The only other markings I have seen are along the length of thr barrel \ \/ | . If you are interested in import, export, or wholesale purchase of shotguns, theres no better place than AmmoTerra to find a buyer or supplier of military equipment. Ancion Marx Caliber 15mm, length 122cm. Flintlock fowling pieces and rifles were made for the Northwest Indian trade until the early twentieth century; so, too, percussion long guns for sale in Africa. Brancquaert Louis Debouxthay was a gunmaker in Liege, Belgium, active at least from 1888-1904. This mark is found on guns that is not made in Belgium by countries that use proofs that is not recognized by the Belgian Proof House. Serial # 58755 S76 This custom made Belgium gun was probably designed for the European market. It was used by a myriad of hunters for all kinds of wild game. Double gun shotguns - Side by Side shotguns, and over under shotguns - Including drillings, double barreled rifles, SxS double rifles, combination guns. The famous "hump back" was made in countless configurations and gauges. Vintage Belgium double barrel identification | The Firearms Forum Colleye Henri Joseph Don't know about the Star P. And I don't ever evaluate guns. gfk0W2|Z#C7xA5 2`f)Hj'[iZWMU=|J-T `)Mtex=]m$azBbk>$QPB gTb0nnPTbj\uD`.3;7 ;U}LuB+2aki!Ld1QNUwr$Oaj9,U1Oe~N2u]6;&?a'LOe3 NIIS/\4fFIGXT[,(rN]3"!2(4YBd^VUY:;jWCJ^f"X.2X:l\d>|D}#&Ofw`Rv|$6&)M These firearms are cottage industry type weapons without a specific brand name. CLIMAS Tradename used by J. Stevens Arms Co. on guns. This printed Miscellaneous When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. Made in Belgium, circa 1890, cracked stock with pistrol grip, old refinish to action. The book There is no doubt that this system contributed much to the good report in which properly proved arms were held, and laid the foundation of much export trade. Home | Login | Register. Hello, I have two ELG 1136 Belgian Percussion Dueling pistols with a 6 inch barrel. The Belgian gun industry in Liege produced flintlock muskets for their African colonies until the mid-1950s. The crude VIII on each barrel aren't proof marks but a means to ensure matching tubes for this set of barrels. Proof Marks or Last edited on 20 February 2023, at 21:10, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_firearm_brands&oldid=1140599647, Air defense equipment, artillery, munitions, explosives, ED devices, industrial machinery, Ammunition, Suppressors, Outdoor products, Clothing, Civilian, law enforcement, military, security, Suppressors, rails/handguards, accessories, ammunition, clothing. Thanks so much. 4 0 obj I have not been able to locate an authoritative resource (copy right L.R. Just as many muzzleloaders were converted to breechloadersthink of the Springfield trapdoor action or the British Snidermany pin-fires were converted to center-fire guns. Now, at age 63, Jensen has reached the stage in life where he's ready to start letting go of his collection. Thank y'all for your help ahead of time! These marks are customarily the cipher of the gunsmiths guild and the mark of the State or city.