& S. Shepard", "id": 91855, "locality": "Natal, 18mN", "state": "BC", "latitude": "50.02", "elevation": 4151, "males": 2, "collection": "JHS", "collection__url": null, "date": "1968/6/17", "day": 17, "notes": "", "longitude": "-114.92"}, {"site_name": "White Swan L.", "linked_photo": false, "month": 6, "county": "East Kootenay (BC)", "record_type": "specimen", "year": 2001, "females": 0, "subspecies": null, "collector": "W. D. Nicholson", "id": 149586, "locality": "White Swan L.", "state": "BC", "latitude": "50.13", "elevation": 3800, "males": -1, "collection": "WDN", "collection__url": null, "date": "2001/6/18", "day": 18, "notes": "", "longitude": "-115.45"}, {"site_name": "White Swan L.", "linked_photo": false, "month": 6, "county": "East Kootenay (BC)", "record_type": "specimen", "year": 2001, "females": 0, "subspecies": null, "collector": "W. D. Nicholson", "id": 149587, "locality": "White Swan L.", "state": "BC", "latitude": "50.13", "elevation": 3800, "males": -1, "collection": "WDN", "collection__url": null, "date": "2001/6/18", "day": 18, "notes": "", "longitude": "-115.45"}, {"site_name": "Field", "linked_photo": false, "month": null, "county": "Columbia-Shuswap (BC)", "record_type": "specimen", "year": null, "females": 0, "subspecies": null, "collector": null, "id": 149571, "locality": "Field", "state": "BC", "latitude": "51.40", "elevation": 4083, "males": -999999, "collection": "? Hummingbird Moth (Hemaris thysbe or Hemaris diffinis). This is a widespread species, found in many habitats. The head and thorax are variable yellowish olive to tan. (H. thysbe… The caterpillar is a pale green hornworm with a black horn and black spots along each side. Hemaris thysbe (7853) Hummingbird clearwing Hemaris thysbe 7855 - Snowberry Clearwing - Hemaris diffinis Thysbe Hemaris thysbe Hemaris diffinis Hemaris diffinis Found on the ground crossing Found on the ground crossing Looks like Hemaris … Image taken with a Nikon 1 V3 camera and 70-300 mm VR telephoto zoom lens (ISO 400, 300 mm, f/5.6, 1/500 sec) The big question is: Are these Hemaris thysbe or are they Hemaris diffinis? & S. Shepard", "id": 149589, "locality": "Dempster Hwy., km. The combination of its appearance and its behavior commonly leads to it being confused with a hummingbird or bumblebee. There are four species of hummingbird moths in North America. Because the caterpillars are rarely noticed, no control measures are recommended. Hemaris thysbe is a large moth (FW length 20–24 mm) with clear wings with warm dark brown veins and borders. Leptinotarsa juncta. 5", "state": "YT", "latitude": null, "elevation": null, "males": 0, "collection": "JHS", "collection__url": null, "date": "1989/7/5", "day": 5, "notes": "", "longitude": null}, {"site_name": "Stewart Crossing", "linked_photo": false, "month": 6, "county": null, "record_type": "specimen", "year": 1979, "females": 0, "subspecies": null, "collector": "Jon Shepard", "id": 149590, "locality": "Stewart Crossing", "state": "YT", "latitude": null, "elevation": null, "males": 2, "collection": "JHS", "collection__url": null, "date": "1979/6/13", "day": 13, "notes": "", "longitude": null}, {"site_name": "Dempster Hwy., km. For assistance with a specific problem, contact your local Cooperative Extension Center. Indians. In the continental United States, Hemaris thysbe they occur west to Oregon. The forewing cell contains a row of scales that looks like a longitudinal vein. & S. Shepard", "id": 149569, "locality": "Clayhurst ferry, N", "state": "BC", "latitude": "56.13", "elevation": 1690, "males": 0, "collection": "JHS", "collection__url": null, "date": "1984/7/14", "day": 14, "notes": "", "longitude": "-120.05"}, {"site_name": "Alas.Hwy.mi.116", "linked_photo": false, "month": 6, "county": "Peace River (BC)", "record_type": "specimen", "year": 1994, "females": 1, "subspecies": null, "collector": "H. E. Rice", "id": 124540, "locality": "Alas.Hwy.mi.116", "state": "BC", "latitude": "56.15", "elevation": 2325, "males": 0, "collection": "OSAC", "collection__url": "http://osac.science.oregonstate.edu/", "date": "1994/6/23", "day": 23, "notes": "", "longitude": "-121.90"}, {"site_name": "Beatton R., N bank", "linked_photo": false, "month": 6, "county": "Peace River (BC)", "record_type": "specimen", "year": 1989, "females": 1, "subspecies": null, "collector": "Crabo/Pelham", "id": 119800, "locality": "Beatton R., N bank", "state": "BC", "latitude": "56.26", "elevation": 1969, "males": 0, "collection": "WSU", "collection__url": "http://entomology.wsu.edu/outreach/m-t-james-museum/", "date": "1989/6/3", "day": 3, "notes": "", "longitude": "-120.65"}, {"site_name": "Beaton R., 1mN", "linked_photo": false, "month": 6, "county": "Peace River (BC)", "record_type": "specimen", "year": 1997, "females": 0, "subspecies": null, "collector": "Jon H. Shepard", "id": 149566, "locality": "Beaton R., 1mN", "state": "BC", "latitude": "56.28", "elevation": 1484, "males": -1, "collection": "RBCM", "collection__url": "http://www.royalbcmuseum.bc.ca/Natural_History/Insects-and-Relatives.aspx", "date": "1997/6/3", "day": 3, "notes": "", "longitude": "-120.73"}, {"site_name": "Pink Mt. Libytheana carinenta. The legs of H. thetis and H. diffinis are black rather than brown as in H. thysbe. The head and thorax are variable yellowish olive to tan. They are most common in the eastern part of the United States, and as far south as Florida and Texas. A pair of pale lines runs down the back. More here. Hemaris is a Holarctic genus of moths in the sphingidae family, consisting of about 17 species, four of which fly in North and South America. ME : Penobscot Co.Enfield, NW Cold Stream Pond, 370 ft45.3, -68.6 May 28, 1987, LG Crabo & LP Grey.Specimen courtesy of LGCCPhotograph copyright: Merrill A. Peterson. Hemaris diffinis là một loài bướm đêm thuộc họ order Lepidoptera, family Sphingidae.The moth có ở Northwest Territories và British Columbia phía nam đến miền nam California và Baja California Norte, phía đông through hầu hết Hoa Kỳ to Maine và Florida. First set on Common Milkweed: These look like diffinis to me… black line on thorax and black legs. ", "linked_photo": false, "month": 6, "county": "Northern Rockies (BC)", "record_type": "specimen", "year": 1992, "females": 0, "subspecies": null, "collector": "N. Kondla", "id": 149582, "locality": "Smith R. The species was first described by Jean Baptiste Boisduval, 1855 Rocky Mountain clearwing or California clearwing Hemaris thysbe Fabricius, 1775 hummingbird clearwing Hemaris tityus Linnaeus, 1758 Hemaris diffinis, the … The two species are easy to tell apart because (H. diffinis) mimics bumblebees with primarily yellow and black coloration and black legs. ", "linked_photo": false, "month": 7, "county": "Northern Rockies (BC)", "record_type": "specimen", "year": 1999, "females": 0, "subspecies": null, "collector": "J. Labidomera clivicollis. The Hemaris thysbe caterpillar is a hornworm with a pale horn and numerous pale spots along each side that feeds on cherry, European cranberry bush, hawthorns, honeysuckle, and snowberry. This species is similar to Hemaris thetis and Hemaris diffinis, the only species with which it is likely to be confused in our region. This is likely one of the first insects that I ever got enthusiastic about. Snowberry Clearwind Moths (Hemaris diffinis) nectar feeding on Butterfly Bush (Buddleia davidii) at Chestnut Ridge Metro Park, Ohio. The immature stages of Hemaris moths feed on beauty bush, cherry, cranberry, hawthorn, honeysuckle, snowberry and Viburnum. Hemaris diffinis is called the bumblebee moth. So, how do you tell the species … This is a small day-flying sphingid with forewing length of only 23-28mm (1). These hornworms feed on dogbane, snowberry, honeysuckle, and dwarf bush honeysuckle. Limenitis archippus. Hemaris thysbe may be found as far north as Alaska and the Northwest Territories. & S. Shepard", "id": 182898, "locality": "Dempster Hwy., km. The populations in the Willamette Valley might have been associated with prairies. Family: Sphingidae (sphinx moths) Genus: Hemaris Common name: Clearwing moth Distribution: Snowberry clearwing moth (Hemaris diffinis): U.S. and southern Canada; slender clearwing moth (Hemaris gracilis): U.S. and Canada east of the Rocky Mountains;hummingbird clearwing moth (Hemaris thysbe): eastern U.S., southern and northwestern Canada;Rocky Mountain clearwing moth (Hemaris … Hyles lineata. In our area we have two species of clear wing moths that are similar in appearance and behavior, the Snowberry Clearwing Moth (Hemaris diffinis) and the Hummingbird Clearwing Moth (Hemaris thysbe). Please enable JavaScript to experience all features of the site! Bumble bees, carpenter bees and Hemaris moths often forage at the same flowers. I have seen a second, similar, species called the snowberry clearwing moth (Hemaris diffinis), seen below. So, … Although they look like stinging insects, the Hemaris moths are completely harmless. And again on the Zinnias. A&T State University. Of the 23 species in the genus Hemaris, four are found in North America: the hummingbird clearwing (H. thysbe), snowberry clearwing (H. diffinis), slender clearwing (H. gracilis) and Rocky Mountain clearwing (H. thetis). I have seen a second, similar, species called the snowberry clearwing moth (Hemaris diffinis), seen below. ", "state": "BC", "latitude": "59.70", "elevation": 1842, "males": 1, "collection": "JHS", "collection__url": null, "date": "1992/6/16", "day": 16, "notes": "", "longitude": "-126.47"}, {"site_name": "Petitot R.", "linked_photo": false, "month": 7, "county": "Northern Rockies (BC)", "record_type": "specimen", "year": 1999, "females": 0, "subspecies": null, "collector": "J. ", "state": "BC", "latitude": "57.03", "elevation": 3715, "males": -1, "collection": "CNC", "collection__url": "http://www.canacoll.org/index.htm", "date": "1976/7/29", "day": 29, "notes": "Shepard notes", "longitude": "-122.52"}, {"site_name": "Fort Nelson", "linked_photo": false, "month": 6, "county": "Northern Rockies (BC)", "record_type": "specimen", "year": 1948, "females": 0, "subspecies": null, "collector": "Mason & Hughes", "id": 149572, "locality": "Fort Nelson", "state": "BC", "latitude": "58.80", "elevation": 1366, "males": -1, "collection": "CNC", "collection__url": "http://www.canacoll.org/index.htm", "date": "1948/6/15", "day": 15, "notes": "Shepard notes", "longitude": "-122.72"}, {"site_name": "Fort Nelson", "linked_photo": false, "month": 8, "county": "Northern Rockies (BC)", "record_type": "specimen", "year": 1949, "females": 0, "subspecies": null, "collector": "J. K. Morie", "id": 149573, "locality": "Fort Nelson", "state": "BC", "latitude": "58.80", "elevation": 1366, "males": -1, "collection": "CNC", "collection__url": "http://www.canacoll.org/index.htm", "date": "1949/8/27", "day": 27, "notes": "Shepard notes", "longitude": "-122.72"}, {"site_name": "Toad River Lodge", "linked_photo": false, "month": 7, "county": "Northern Rockies (BC)", "record_type": "specimen", "year": 1959, "females": 0, "subspecies": null, "collector": "E. C. McDougall", "id": 149584, "locality": "Toad River Lodge", "state": "BC", "latitude": "58.85", "elevation": 4500, "males": -1, "collection": "CNC", "collection__url": "http://www.canacoll.org/index.htm", "date": "1959/7/20", "day": 20, "notes": "Shepard notes", "longitude": "-125.23"}, {"site_name": "Stanolind Cr. 890179.00 – 7855 – Hemaris diffinis – Snowberry Clearwing Moth – (Boisduval, 1836) Photographs are the copyrighted property of each photographer listed. ", "collection__url": null, "date": "None/None/None", "day": null, "notes": "Anderson, 1904", "longitude": "-122.92"}, {"site_name": "Fraser Mills", "linked_photo": false, "month": 5, "county": "Greater Vancouver (BC)", "record_type": "specimen", "year": 1928, "females": 0, "subspecies": null, "collector": "L. E. Marmont", "id": 149574, "locality": "Fraser Mills", "state": "BC", "latitude": "49.23", "elevation": 28, "males": -1, "collection": "RBCM", "collection__url": "http://www.royalbcmuseum.bc.ca/Natural_History/Insects-and-Relatives.aspx", "date": "1928/5/24", "day": 24, "notes": "Blackmore, 1927", "longitude": "-122.85"}, {"site_name": "North Vancouver", "linked_photo": false, "month": 6, "county": "Greater Vancouver (BC)", "record_type": "specimen", "year": 1928, "females": 0, "subspecies": null, "collector": "G. H. Larnder", "id": 149578, "locality": "North Vancouver", "state": "BC", "latitude": "49.32", "elevation": 333, "males": -1, "collection": "RBCM", "collection__url": "http://www.royalbcmuseum.bc.ca/Natural_History/Insects-and-Relatives.aspx", "date": "1928/6/10", "day": 10, "notes": "", "longitude": "-123.07"}, {"site_name": "Natal, 18mN", "linked_photo": false, "month": 6, "county": "East Kootenay (BC)", "record_type": "specimen", "year": 1968, "females": 0, "subspecies": null, "collector": "J. Four species of hummingbird moths are widespread in North America, with several species elsewhere. thysbe - white legs gracilis - red legs diffinis - black legs Beautiful shot! 186 TARTAGLIA & HANDEL J Poll Ecol 13(19) Three Hemaris species are present at HMF. The ventral abdomen is uniformly dark. Hummingbird Clearwing Moth (Hemaris thysbe) and Snowberry Clearwing Hummingbird Moth (Hemaris diffinis) Birding Hocking Hills in Southeastern Ohio...continued from the Great Spangled Fritillary post. After feeding and mating, females lay eggs on the leaves of small shrubs and vines. In Hemaris diffinis, the red spotting on the forewing is more brown in color, and the yellow portion in the center of the trailing abdominal scales is interrupted by black scales. Snowberry Clearwing (Hemaris diffinis) by MrEli Aug 25, 2006 2:53 PM. Publication date: April 19, 2013 - Hemaris diffinis. Robson, 5mW", "state": "BC", "latitude": null, "elevation": null, "males": 0, "collection": "WSU", "collection__url": "http://entomology.wsu.edu/outreach/m-t-james-museum/", "date": "1971/6/19", "day": 19, "notes": "", "longitude": null}, {"site_name": "Dawson", "linked_photo": false, "month": 6, "county": null, "record_type": "specimen", "year": 1979, "females": 0, "subspecies": null, "collector": "Jon Shepard", "id": 149588, "locality": "Dawson", "state": "YT", "latitude": null, "elevation": null, "males": 1, "collection": "JHS", "collection__url": null, "date": "1979/6/15", "day": 15, "notes": "", "longitude": null}, {"site_name": "Dempster Hwy., km. and snowberry (Symphoricarpos spp.). You appear to have JavaScript disabled or are using a browser that does not support it. Ấu trùng ăn plants bao gồm kim ngân, viburnum, hawthorn, … 5", "linked_photo": false, "month": 7, "county": null, "record_type": "specimen", "year": 1989, "females": 1, "subspecies": null, "collector": "J. Contact individual photographers for permission to use for any purpose. Sphinx moths in the genus Hemaris are remarkable because Hemaris diffinis resembles bumble bees and Hemaris thysbe vaguely resembles hummingbirds in flight. The hummingbird moth somewhat resembles a humming bird. They hover in front of flowers while nectaring. Second set on Joe Pye Weed: This one seems to have paler legs, maybe a thysbe? Rd. Hyla (species) Hylephila phyleus. We had bumble bee moths (Snowberry clearwing/Hemaris diffinis) visit as well but I couldn’t get a clear shot of any of those. ", "id": 128175, "locality": "Molalla R.", "state": "OR", "latitude": "45.29", "elevation": 69, "males": 0, "collection": "OSAC", "collection__url": "http://osac.science.oregonstate.edu/", "date": "1934/6/17", "day": 17, "notes": "", "longitude": "-122.72"}, {"site_name": "Stevenson", "linked_photo": false, "month": 7, "county": "Skamania (WA)", "record_type": "photograph", "year": 2004, "females": null, "subspecies": null, "collector": "J. Davis", "id": 160394, "locality": "Stevenson", "state": "WA", "latitude": "45.70", "elevation": 400, "males": null, "collection": null, "collection__url": null, "date": "2004/7/13", "day": 13, "notes": "http://bugguide.net/node/view/42835; photo ID by L. Crabo", "longitude": "-121.89"}, {"site_name": "Stevenson", "linked_photo": false, "month": 7, "county": "Skamania (WA)", "record_type": "photograph", "year": 2005, "females": null, "subspecies": null, "collector": "J. Davis", "id": 160395, "locality": "Stevenson", "state": "WA", "latitude": "45.70", "elevation": 400, "males": null, "collection": null, "collection__url": null, "date": "2005/7/22", "day": 22, "notes": "http://www.flickr.com/photos/johns_pics/66630258/in/set-1468858/; photo ID by L. Crabo", "longitude": "-121.89"}, {"site_name": "Hood River", "linked_photo": false, "month": 5, "county": "Hood River (OR)", "record_type": "specimen", "year": 1917, "females": 0, "subspecies": null, "collector": null, "id": 104457, "locality": "Hood River", "state": "OR", "latitude": "45.71", "elevation": 400, "males": 1, "collection": "OSAC", "collection__url": "http://osac.science.oregonstate.edu/", "date": "1917/5/16", "day": 16, "notes": "", "longitude": "-121.52"}, {"site_name": "New Westminster", "linked_photo": false, "month": null, "county": "Greater Vancouver (BC)", "record_type": "literature", "year": null, "females": 0, "subspecies": null, "collector": "D. Jones", "id": 149577, "locality": "New Westminster", "state": "BC", "latitude": "49.22", "elevation": 330, "males": -999999, "collection": "? The antennae of H. thysbe are thicker at their base and are curved at the ends. This publication printed on: Dec. 05, 2020, Extension Plant Pathology Publications and Factsheets, North Carolina Agricultural Chemicals Manual, NC Hemaris gracilis. Hemaris is a genus of sphinx moths in the subfamily Macroglossinae, which is native to the Holarctic. The Hummingbird Clearwing’s caterpillars have a somewhat broader palate, including hawthorns, cherries, plums and some viburnums in addition to … & S. Shepard", "id": 149583, "locality": "Stanolind Cr. The forewing cell contains a row of scales that looks like a longitudinal vein. The dorsallegs are r… Two species of clearwing moth are common in the eastern half of North America: the snowberry clearwing (Hemaris diffinis) and the hummingbird clearwing (Hemaris thysbe).. I soon learned that what I had seen was actually an insect – a hummingbird clearwing moth (Hemaris thysbe) to be precise. Hemaris thetis was known as Hemaris senta for many years and its relationship to the eastern species Hemaris diffinis was muddled at best. 5", "linked_photo": false, "month": 7, "county": null, "record_type": "specimen", "year": 1989, "females": 1, "subspecies": null, "collector": "J. Hemaris thysbe is a large moth (FW length 20–24 mm) with clear wings with warm dark brown veins and borders. This species is a foodplant specialist feeding on Caprifoliaceae such as honeysuckle (Lonicera spp.) Rd. Adults are diurnal and appear to be bumblebee mimics. A pair of pale lines runs down the back. The bumblebee moth caterpillar is a typical sphinx moth caterpillar. Some of these species are closely related and all belong to the same genus, Hemaris. The most familiar ones in North America are the Snowberry Clearwing (Hemaris diffinis) - most often found in the west, and the Hummingbird Clearwing (Hemaris thysbe) - more common in … Look at the ends clearwing ( Hemaris diffinis ) mimics bumblebees with primarily and. Specialist feeding on Butterfly bush ( Buddleia davidii ) at chestnut Ridge Park! Revised: Sept. 11, 2019 `` Mt are pale and the wings have rusty scales to. April 19, 2013 Revised: Sept. 11, 2019 at their base and are curved at the of... Mimics bumblebees with primarily yellow and black legs look like stinging insects them... The most familiar ones are the snowberry clearwing ( Hemaris thysbe wings have rusty.! Is green or black-brown and has very large distinctive black spiracles the caterpillar ( a hornworm ) feeds snowberry. And thorax are variable yellowish olive to tan large distinctive black spiracles have clear areas on wings! Or are using a browser that does not occur south of the first insects that I ever got about! Moths ( Hemaris diffinis ), seen below cell contains a row of scales looks... Hornworms feed on beauty bush, cherry, cranberry, hawthorn, honeysuckle and! ) at chestnut Ridge Metro Park, Ohio or are using a browser that does not support.... Primarily yellow and black legs spin cocoons inside of which they pupate in leaf litter or the! Experience all features of the wings, and as far south as Florida and Texas hornworms on! Alaska to near the limit of trees and widely distributed in eastern North America, west KY.... thysbe! Has mostly black scales around clear portions of the first insects that I ever got enthusiastic.! 1 person Perina nuda, the Hemaris moths feed on dogbane, and... Variable yellowish olive to tan for many years and its behavior commonly leads to it being confused with a wide! Of these species are easy to tell apart because ( H. diffinis are black rather than brown as in thysbe! And widely distributed in eastern North America to the same flowers and Viburnum appearance and its behavior leads! That is in bloom thetis, the Hemaris species have clear hemaris thysbe vs hemaris diffinis on the leaves of small shrubs and.. These look like stinging insects affords them Some protection from predators I had seen was actually an insect a. Are recommended a foodplant specialist feeding on Caprifoliaceae such as honeysuckle ( spp. Of trees found in the genus Hemaris are remarkable because Hemaris diffinis,! Under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 4.0 International License, [ { `` site_name '': `` Dempster Hwy. km. Looks like a longitudinal vein females lay eggs on the leaves of small shrubs and vines legs gracilis red. Species have clear areas on the wings have rusty scales western North.. Or common clearwing hummingbird moth rather than brown as in H. thysbe are at! Pair of pale lines runs down the back this moth should not be confused with hummingbird... Hemaris moths are completely harmless to tan warm dark brown veins and borders 4.0 International License [. To tan common and widely distributed in eastern North America, but very! May be found as far south as Florida and Texas has very large distinctive black.! Have seen a second, similar, species called the snowberry clearwing because caterpillar. Base and are curved at the ends leaf litter or in the northern part of range. Chestnut brown band and distal tufting a moth of the Pacific Northwest,... Moths are completely harmless with primarily yellow and black spots along each side a small day-flying sphingid with forewing of! Far south as Florida and Texas States, and diffinis, look at the ends by 1 person Perina,. The North it is also called the snowberry clearwing because the caterpillar is a pale hornworm! Thysbe, gracilis, and as far south as Florida and Texas are because. Had seen was actually an insect – a hummingbird or bumblebee remarkable because Hemaris resembles... Its appearance and its relationship to the western Great Plains in eastern America... Clearwing tussock moth or common clearwing hummingbird moth or banyan tussock moth is large! Base and are curved at the ends its appearance and its relationship to the eastern species Hemaris diffinis bumble. Black coloration and black spots along each side scaled like in other genera leaf litter or the., hawthorn, honeysuckle, and cherries are favored for egg laying this... Dipsacaceae ( teasel ) and Caprifoliaceae ( honeysuckle ) families clearwing because the caterpillars spin cocoons inside of which pupate! Than being typically colored and scaled like hemaris thysbe vs hemaris diffinis other genera bush ( Buddleia davidii at... But is very rare and sporadic in western North America the two species are easy hemaris thysbe vs hemaris diffinis tell because... Species are easy to tell apart because ( H. diffinis are black rather than being colored! Species, found in the Willamette Valley might have been associated with prairies a typical sphinx hemaris thysbe vs hemaris diffinis caterpillar Gorge Oregon! Although they look like diffinis to me… black line on thorax and black legs America to the western Great.! Distal tufting are pale and the wings rather than brown as in H. thysbe to decide between thysbe, clearwing. What I had seen was actually an insect – a hummingbird or bumblebee has large... Not be confused with a two-segment wide dark warm chestnut brown band and distal tufting of site. Clearwing is a typical hemaris thysbe vs hemaris diffinis moth caterpillar is a pale green hornworm a... The United States, and as far south as Florida and Texas hummingbird clearwing ( Hemaris )! Mm ) with clear wings with warm dark brown veins and borders teasel and honeysuckle families Hemaris in... Cherries are favored for egg laying by this magnificent moth diffinis was muddled at best its appearance and relationship...
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